Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1486



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

The Jyhad in progress
Re: Task systems.
Yet another Vote Count, 26th of June, Call to vote included.
Re: Deckplan Question?
Re: The Real Vote
Re: In defence of MegaTraveller
Re: Rule of Man (ROM) TL
Task System Debate
Task Debate
Re: Re: Anomalies stuff
Milieu Zero - A Pocket Empires "Jump" Point
Curious Player Character Behavior
Space Bozos (was Skill Descriptions)
I have to pull out.
To the MT People--One Last Note Before I Go.
Personal Plea to Kenneth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:44:42 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: The Jyhad in progress

Am I the only one who is beginning to find the level of discussion on the
task system revision rapidly sliding into a personal war between factions?

I have reached the point where I am about to set a filter to remove *any*
mention of KBv2.0, and send it to the trash immediately, because I am so
offended by Kenneth's tone.  Mr. Bearden, I don't need to justify what I
like and use in my game to you, Marc Miller, or anyone but my players.  I
have played and run Traveller since 1977 and I resent your constantly
insisting that yours is the only way.

I liked MT's task system a great deal, but I realize that it won't be used
for T4.1.  What I want is to see some of the better features from that
system (task time, fateful and uncertain tasks, etc.) applied to the new
task system.  This would help me in putting together a task library that I
can use over and over again.

At this point, I think we have given Marc (remember him?  The guy who
WRITES the game?) enough feedback and opinions to allow him to make his call.

A few facts as I see them:

1>  Neither KBv2.0 or MT is going to be the new task sytem.

2>  The new task system has to be compatible with what has gone before,
since there are several thousand Traveller players who are not on the TML
who need to be able to use T4.1 without invalidating all their prior
materials.

A final note.. Several of us on the list have taken the opportunity offered
by the release of T4 to start writing for the game we have enjoyed for so
long.. Stu and Joe most notably, but a couple of us have had JTAS articles
published, or are working on things to sell to IG.

If you truly feel that your pet task system is good enough, get it
published somewhere.  Try Shadis or Pyramid or Valkryie.. they are always
starved for articles.

In this manner, you can submit you ideas to the court of public opinion,
the final arbiter of what is good in gaming.

This will be my last post on the task system arguement.  If you wish to
discuss it further, please email me.


- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|    "Traveller assumes a remote centralized     |
|   government (referred to in this volume as    |
|    the Imperium)...                            |
|       -Introduction, Book 4: Mercenary (1978)  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:37:46 -0400
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Task systems.

At 01:51 PM 6/26/97 GMT, you wrote:
>Why restrict it to two task systems?

>It's easy to understand and it's not specific to any task system. It's usable
>by everyone regardless of rules system without modification (I haven't had
>chance to check the details).

>T4.1 can be printed with a single task system inside. Printing more than one 
>task system may be confusing to new players (particularly to people who have 
>never played an RPG).
>Also the task system in the rulebook could be revised from edition to
edition 
>without making old supplements out of date (Like pocket empires would be if 
>the task system changed now).

If someone has a worthy alternate task system that followed these ideas,
submit it to JTAS.  That's what it's there for.

 James Garriss           Information Systems Engineer, MITRE
 jgarriss@mitre.org           http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 19:15:32 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Yet another Vote Count, 26th of June, Call to vote included.

Notes:
MT is highest at the moment. More votes than KBv.XX and T4.1 
combined! T4.1 is gaining support at the same speed of MT, and has 
matched KBvXX.
No concensus has been reached so far, maybe the undecided 
voters could now choose between the main contenders and cast their 
votes with the faction most desireavle to them.....


Voting for T4.1 with revisions or variants thereof:

Marc Miller
A.S.Lilly
Phil Kitching
Tim Reynolds
Simon Turner
Andrew Vallance
Mike Lee
Leroy WL Guatney
Suzette Dollar
Stuart Dollar
Allen Shock
Bill Prankard
Joe Heck
J.P.
Joe Walsh
Anders Backman
twolf
- -17
( some of these state that it can't stand as it is though)


Voting for KBv2.0 (or other KB variants or similar systems) were:
 -17
Kenneth Bearden
Dedly 
Richard Hough
 Kelly St.Clair 
Jason Anderson
Jeff Norton 
VolantZep 
James W. Lindsay 
SD Mooney (willing to Accept KBvXX, prefers MT) 
dmckinne            (ditto!)
Michael Galligan 
Jeff Zeitlin
Glenn Grant 
FC Pickett
Chris Griffen
Roderick Darroch Elliott
Anders Backman (as alt. to T4.1)

Voting for a system along the lines of MT 
(or variants thereof):
(or just preferring it!)
- -38
Volker A. Greimann
Carlos Alos Ferrer
Andrew Akins
Nick Munn
2drapers
Dave Scott
RFXn
Sam Thomas
JumpSix
PA Harris ("Harry")
Erwin Fritz
Peter Miller
Erik Riley
Steve Brengard
DJ Golden
Douglas E. Berry
Gypsy Comet
Rob Prior
Mark Clarc
Franklin Cain
Vanya
John Snead
David P Summers
Ryan Dooley
SD Mooney
Bob Sanders
Ola Agren
dmckinne
Andy Brick
William F. Hostman
Stephanie Hostman
Roy Martin
Nik Whitehead
Andrew Boulton
Steve Charlton
Victor Holzrichter
"J."
Jens Maskus

TNE-like D20 system
- -3
Harold Hale
R. Boleyn
DJ.Golden

Other votes generally in favor of change (no specific system)
- -12
Jeffry Miller
John Wood
jwbrewer
Mark Ayers
Bruce Alan Macintosh
Neil McGurk
Michael Peters
Paul Owensby
Marc Bradley
Scott Ellsworth
Eris Redoch
Glenn Grant
Victor Raymond

87 votes tallied!

MT taking an impressive lead by now! Anybody cited wrong or left out
mail me and i'll change the list!


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:27:51 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Deckplan Question?

Anders writes

>While fidgeting with the design system I did some
>TL changes as well

>9-     No gravitics tech yet
>       This was in order to have jump-capable non grav systems

A man after my own heart! One of my favourite periods to design 
spacecraft for is "low TL9" - societies with every aspect of TL9 except
gravitics. (For example, I like to assume the Terrans didn't independently
discover gravitics but copied it from the Vilani...) It's lots of fun to
design TL9 spacecraft without grav - I had some FFS AZHRAE shuttles I was
very proud of. My first TTA project will be a TL9 shuttle - probably 
using a gas-core NTR since AZHRAE is gone.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:55:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: Re: The Real Vote

Being classed in the other department is still correct for me.

I have used all traveller task systems. I didn't like T4's task system so
I played with it much as many of us have. I tried the KB's during all
stages of their public development then settled on my own weighting.
Finally I find myself strongly in favor of a MT like 2D6 versus set target
numbers modified by DMs. This, I think, gives the referee greatest control
while allowing the player some estimate of his or her chance of success.

Having said this I am confident that Marc will develop an execellent task
system, with all of our concerns considered.

Then, of course, I'll test it, tweak it, toss it and forget to roll the
dice as I announce the result that provides the best dramatic plot point.
:)

- ----------
Mark Ayers
Net Admin for the Book and Bean Internet Cafe: <admin@bbic.com>
Traveller Referee for Seattle Metro Gamers  <mark@bbic.com>
- ----------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:31:12 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: In defence of MegaTraveller

> Might be for you. 
> BTW: Notice that KBVxx is more complicated than MT?
> Apart from Divisions/Multiplication which cuts each other out there 
> are many more additions necessary!!! ;-)

What!?

In MT, you have your generic starting target number.  You have to 
divide your stat by 5 every time you do it and get a modifier.  Then 
you use your skill as a modifier.  And, your target number has to be 
recalculated every time for every difficulty.

After you've got these 4 things together, you come up with a task to 
roll.

In KBv2.0, there's one step--add experience and attribute together.

That's it.  It's elegant.  Your skill, stat, and target number all 
rolled up in one easy, elegant calculation.

Granted, MT is easy.  I like the system, and I've used it for a long 
time.  It was my system of choice before T4 came along.

But, KBv2.0 is much easier.  One simple addition, and you are rocking 
and rolling--not fiddleing with modifers and target numbers and such.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:59:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rule of Man (ROM) TL

On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Leroy William Lu Guatney wrote:
 
> To those of you who still think that J-drive range is the sole measure
> of tech level, answer the following questions.
> 
> 1) What tech does it take to Terraform a size 8 world?
> 
> 2) What tech does it take to genetically alter homo-sapiens into a
>    self-reproducing, stable, water-breathing variant (i.e. make a minor
>    human)?
> 
> 3) What tech does it take to genetically alter a non-sapient species to
>    sapience (i.e. dolphins)?
> 
> 
> All of the above were accomplished by the Terran Confederation BEFORE the
> Rule of Man.


This is a problem specific to the way that TL is defined in Traveller.
TL's were defined pretty much before the ongoing revolutions in genetics,
small computers, and even to a some extent materials technology. These
other things were introduced as plot devices and background as the game
and the official history evolved, and didn't always follow the 'rules' for
defining TL, what there were of them.

This means, I think, that we can really only use TL to determine a few
things, primarily starship jump capability, some weapons technology, and
some transport technology. Other areas such as terraforming, geneering,
cybernetics, etc are much more nebulously associated with any given TL.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 01:39:53 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Task System Debate

>Hm. Third suggestion.
>
>3) Keep the present task system, renaming it the "space opera" style.
>(Because a character can be good at everything with high attributes.)  Make a
>new system that can use the same task descriptions (in terms of
>skill/attribute/level) but has a different balance, and call that the "hard
>SF" style.  BOTH systems would be official, and which one is used would be up
>to the gamers.  Then gaming groups can pick a task system to match their
>style, and it will still be Traveller.
>
This would work GREAT if only the COMBAT rules were crossed over to using
modifiers to difficulty level, rather than target number... thusly freeing
combat from being task-system specific (as it is in T4.0).


William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 01:22:49 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@asylumbbs.com>
Subject: Task Debate

Kenneth Spewed forth yesterday, and amongst his war of words by spamming
the list, put forth the following:
>
>But, in T4, we don't.  Damage is instantaneous.
>
>T4 is not MT.  T4 is CT with tweaks.

Obviously, Kenneth has been totally *B*L*I*N*D* to the goings on of the
past 2 years on TML. T4 is NOT CT, it is NOT MT, it is DEFINITELY NOT
TNE... but mingled pieces of each, and some new stuff. Note, ken, that FF&S
Tweaked is NOTHING LIKE anything from CT, except for the passing
similarities to Striker.

>T4 is to CT like MT is to CT.  But, T4 is not to MT like either T4 or
>MT is to CT.

Logically Flawed. Thanks to Eris, Harold, Dave, and others T4 is much more
a hybrid of CT & TNE than a revision of CT. The task system is new, and
combat is effectively new; CGen borrows more from MT than CT, and ken is
rabidly ignoring reality.

>If you can follow that confusing line, you'll see what I mean.
>
>Kenneth.

I can follow it, but I wholly disagree with the line of spam ken is serving.

William F. Hostman		If you were using Eudora Lite 3.0,
Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com 	<-- that would be a hot-link 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 11:01:19 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: Anomalies stuff

At 04:05 AM 6/26/97 GMT, Rob Prior wrote:
>>I'm aware of that, but there seems to be quite a lot of this TL13+ 
>>relic tech out there
>
>Actually, _is_ there a lot of TL13+ relic stuff around, or have we just had a
>lot of adventures with it in?

I made my life easier - I extracted every bit of working TL>12 stuff out
there,  and replaced a very few pieces with old prototypes.  They usually
did not work a thousand years ago, and now they make engineers cry.
Especially if it happened to be the one in a million device that actually
worked, until the players used it.

>Oh yes, I'm filling out failure reports.  If anyone can think of a tactful
>way to say "Your offspring failed because they are rude obnoxious twits who
>do no work, talk continuously, and handed in a nearly blank final exam."
>_please_ email me -- I'm getting desperate :-/

How about "Your offspring is a fine example of what the American
educational system seems to want to produce, despite the honest efforts of
the decent teachers in the system."  (Is Canada suffering from this?  I had
a friend in the American system recently get severely castigated for giving
a trig problem in which one measured the height of the mast on a yacht,
given a length of rope and an angle, as the problem was not "properly non
judgmental about economic status, and gave excessive advantage to coastal
students."

Alternatively, "Your offspring is best used as fertilizer."

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:48:42 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Milieu Zero - A Pocket Empires "Jump" Point

Hi,

I was playing an introductory adventure last night designed to get my
players into the bowels of Pocket Empires, and to soon be running their
own interstellar nations, so that, I could bring my own empire into the
fray and enjoy it thouroughly.

In coming up with an idea for how to get them to be colonizers without
using the Pocket Empires book's patrons etc. I came up with the
following.  Now, I don't have Milieu Zero so this is probably very
off-canon etc. but still, I like it.

SIRS (The Sylean Internal Revenue Service, pronounced "Cy-Ris") is
sponsering colonial expeditions into the wilds outside the Federation
(BTW, my campaign is set in -40).  Why, you ask?  Because all new
colonial regions will be under the auspices of the Sylean Federation (in
theory... I figure my players will peacefully coexist with the
Federation until Cleon declares Empire in 40 years, so I'm giving them
some time to build a power base) and SIRS is looking to expand it'sd tax
base.  Through skillfully manipulated deals with prospective Pocket
Emperors SIRS funds their missions, and provides that a large debt will
eb incured, as well as annual shares of the profits of the aspiring
Pocket Empire.

While, it is of course not canon, I thought up some really great
adventures for both single character and Pocket Empire play involving
SIRS, including the threat of the Revenue Service, or a faction of it
splitting off from Cleon after the declaration of Empire.  As well as
this, through into the mixture the Sylean Courier Service, Colonization
Agency and organized crime and I'm cooking up a hefty pot of political
turmoil in the pre-Imperium days.  

What does everyone think?  And, BTW, how far is this away from Milieu
Zero 'canon' to have several Syelan government agencies break away from
the Federation when it declares Empire.  I figured this could be true
for those who felt that their jurisdiction would be cut down, or that
their power would eb amalgamated into some new 'alien' system.  I plan
on having the Sylean Colonization Agency take off with it's members
worlds as a peaceful, but relatively strong opponent to the fledgling
Imperium, as well as the Courier Service taking a few of it's far flung
worlds in a loose-knit Confederacy.  Organized crime's going to have a
hand in the pot somewhere, though I'm not sure what they're cover will
be.  Then, you've got SIRS with all this planets and small empires in
debt, they will have a small, but consolidated core of planets, as well
as all these debt-plagued empires to call as allies, forming a
formidable front against the Imperium, one which Cleon may not surive.

As you can, I'm really thinking my own universe, but, regardless, it's
fun! :) :)  Thanks for listening, and send me comments and ideas! :)
- -- 
________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"Virutally anything mentioned in a story or article can be transferred
to the Traveller environment.  Orbital cities, nuclear war, alien
societies, puzzles, enigmas, absolutley anything can occur, with
imagination being the only limit."
                                - Marc W. Miller (CT Book 3)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 11:25:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: Curious Player Character Behavior

I thought that perhaps the task debate was do for a lighter [non-game
mechanics] break.

Here are a few anecdotes from a few of the real on-going campaigns I am
involved in.

1. In a TNE based campaign the hot shot pilot from the wilds, who would
rather be lording around the poor untrained crew in engineering, is often
heard responding to questions with the statement "Oh yes, _____  was an
important 2nd Imperium Emporer." Never fully realizing that the 2nd
Imperium was dominated by Solamani descended rather than his much loved
Vilani kin. All this despite the fact that he has almost no Vilani blood.

2. In a alternate Traveller universe based on a referee's idea of the 3rd
Imperium circa 800 a former Imperial Marine major moodly moves about the
ship slipping back and forth between Manic and Depressive states. After
having been the hero of an on-planet violent encounter, and after having
been rebuffed in an amourous proposistion to a fellow crew member, warning
buzzers go off in the bridge as an unautorized cycling of the airlock is
detected. Members of the crew rush to check on the intrusion only to find
the major unconcious on the starport tarmac. Seems he was never aware that
the ship had landed and had entered the airlock intent on ending it all in
the vast emptiness of space.

- ----------
Mark Ayers
Net Admin for the Book and Bean Internet Cafe: <admin@bbic.com>
Traveller Referee for Seattle Metro Gamers  <mark@bbic.com>
- ----------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 14:36:29 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Space Bozos (was Skill Descriptions)

>An explanation of how skill levels work, from The Space Bozos
[snip]

I'll happily take credit for it-oof! [sounds of beating about the head]

That is, my *players* will happily take credit for it.  It was a collective
effort.

Someday I'll post the bit about the skill Maxi-Pad 5, and the value of TL15
feminine products as armor.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 19:07:15 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: I have to pull out.

I hate to do this, especially with all of this stuff between MT and 
KBv2.0, but I've got to pull out of the debate for a while.

I have a side business where I produce videos.  I've just made a deal 
to direct a music video for a local band's first appearance on TNN.

When I'm in production, I have little time for anything else.  
Shooting and editing can sometimes be a 24 hr. a day job, and this 
will be a big shoot where I film some of the video in Houston's 
largest concert venue.  I also need to capture the band at different 
play dates.  The first one is on July 4th, so I only have a little 
time to prepare.

This means that I won't have any time to participate in the TML 
discussions.  Since I'm going to be away from the list for a while, I 
felt that I owed all of you an explanation--especially with the 
KBv2.0 challenge out there.

Thanks for all of the stimulating conversation on the task issue--one 
of my pet peeves as all of you know.  This thread will probably be 
dead by the time I get back.

All of you know where I stand on this issue.  I do think that MT has 
a good system, but I know that the multiple dice actually helps the 
task system--not hinders it.  I do believe that the T4 way of 
thinking is superior to the 2 dice MT system.  I wish I had time to 
prove it to you and answer some of these well thought out and written 
posts by the MT proponents.

When I get back, maybe you will all have found the answer--whatever 
that may be.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 19:32:33 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: To the MT People--One Last Note Before I Go.

One last thing before I go...

I know that a lot of you think that I am a hard headed one-way 
thinker, but this couldn't be farther from the truth.

When I designed KBv2.0, I looked at all the options.  I believe that 
I have covered them in the system.  It is because of this (that I 
believe in the system) that I promote it--not because I designed it.

If somebody else would have designed it, I would have promoted that 
just as hard.  I can cite some examples in the past where I have done 
this--Glenn Hoppe's theory on Jumpspace, Glenn Grant's wonderful hit 
location system.

When I see something I like in Traveller--something that makes 
complete sense, I adopt it and use it.

I think that sometimes I get flack because I am perceived as pushing 
KBv2.0 only because it is my system.  This couldn't be farther from 
the truth.  I am man enough to admit when I am wrong, and I have done 
this most recently with my comments about the MT SS system.

That system is different from what I'm looking for in a system, but I 
can now certainly see how some would be attracted to it.  It's a 
different way of looking at things, but I can see that it is viable.  
I noted this in my reply to that issue.

What I'm trying to tell all of you here is that I am not close 
minded.  On the contrary, I am very open minded.  I promote KBv2.0 
because I believe it is the best system for Traveller--not because I 
am closed minded at looking at other systems.

Here's what I'd like to do.  All of you MT proponents--put together 
the best 2 dice system you can.  Stop quibbling, band together, and 
instead of arguing moot points, do something constructive for 
Traveller and design the best 2 dice system you can.

When I get back, I'll take an honest look at it.  If it is good, it 
might have a chance of being adopted by T4.1.  If it is, and it is 
good, I'll probably use it myself--because I like to use official 
rules as much as I can.

So, stop all of this bickering.  Get organized and do something 
constructive.  

When we had the first Task System debate, this is what I did.  
Instead of endless arguments over the TML, I worked for a month or so 
to combat the issue.  KBv2.0 was the result.

Now, you can do the same thing.  You would like to see a return to 2 
dice in Traveller?  OK, fine.  What exact system would you propose?

Do something about it.  Take the initiaitive and design the best task 
system Traveller has ever seen.

Would you rather argue about moot points or do something 
constructive?

If you've got something good going when I get back, I'll probably get 
behind you.

Good luck,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 15:04:28 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Personal Plea to Kenneth

Kenneth,

Let me start off by saying I currently use a variant of the task system that
relies rather heavily on T4/KBV. I like what the system does. I admire the
work you've put into it. I appreciate that your constant championing for
change was one of if not the major reason Marc got involved in this whole
task debate. And I mean the following in the friendliest, most non-flammable
way possible, OK?

Please, give it a rest with KBV, OK? Pretty please, with sugar on top?

Your original intentions of trying to provoke a consensus that T4 needed
fixing was excellent, and quite successful. But you have since strayed into
fanaticism on this point that "KBV is the best Traveller task system ever."
That is your opinion. Others are entitled to theirs. Constantly slapping 
us in the face with it is not going to create converts, no matter how often
and loudly you shout it. Please give it a rest; you have successfully 
gotten Marc to take a look at the Task System and its problems, and you
have successfully put forth your opinion as to how to fix it. I don't think
there is one person on this list who is not now aware of how your system
works and why you think it is the best. Now sit back on your laurels and
let the rest of the folks state why they think that their systems are the
best.

As I said, I like your system and use it heavily in my personal variant. But
your constant championing of it has seriously gotten me to the point where
I just as often page on past your posts as read them if I see your name at the
top. I don't like this, you have good things to say and good ideas. But I
have gotten so irritated by your actions that I just can't stand to see
another
"KBV is the best thing for Traveller since Mercenaries"-toned post.

The gods know that I am not trying to stomp on your right to post whatever
you like on this list; and by all means you have every right to post KBV 
3 times a day in a dozen languages if you wish. But please, and this is
meant in the friendliest manner possible, give it a rest and let Marc hear
other peoples opinions and make up his mind so we can get back to
discussing ANYTHING ELSE on this list :)

**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

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End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1486
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